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Free healthcare = freedom to be unhealthy

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1Report
at 13 Jun 2008: 09:34

I think this topic is important for furries because many of the ones I know live extremely unhealthy lives glued infront of their computer drinking energy drinks and snacks all day long.

Has anyone else noticed that those who talk about universal healthcare and "free"(it's not really free, you pay for it with higher taxes or mandatory healthcare fees deducted automatically) healthcare happen to be some of the most unhealthy individuals possible? I never see a healthy person who takes care of themselves arguing that universal healthcare is the way to go.

Here are some of the disadvantages of universal healthcare IMO;
-Everyone pays into it equally, there is no incentive to live healthy.
-We currently have fairly long wait times even with our "broken" system, those times would increase.
-Univeral healthcare promotes a reactive system rather than a proactive one
-Taxes, lots of taxes.
-The unhealthy get a larger share of the money paid into the program and ride off the backs of the healthy

Now in my mind it makes more sense to do the following;
-Standardize pricing, someone without insurance shouldn't have to pay 5-10 times more for the same bill than insurance would.
-Make insurance plans portable, losing a job shouldn't mean losing insurance and all the money you paid in
-Give the huge tax credits companies give to the people
-Give insurance rate discounts to people who live healthy. If you don't drink, smoke, do drugs or eat unhealthily then you should pay LESS because you will most likely require less.
-Give increased rates to those who live unhealthy, they will need more care for problems developed later in life. Also, this will encourage people to stop letting themselves become morbidly obese, chain smokers/drinkers, etc etc.
-Require all doctors to supply patients with EXACT and direct information on how to be healthy. The lack of easily(not freely) available information is a big problem. Some doctors you have to pull words out their mouth just to get an opinion.

With that said, I think people need to start taking personal responsibility in their lives. I do agree healthcare needs reform but PEOPLE also need reform. There is no excuse for living unhealthy then expecting someone else to pick up the check for your dozen expensive operations that could have been fully avoided. Please don't turn this into a political debate.

Do you know any furs who fit into the problem i'm talking about?

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at 13 Jun 2008: 11:27

I try to exercise every day, and I agree with just about all that you said. Privatization and finding a way to make drug companies behave are the answers, I think.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 11:46

I haven't done any deep research, but IMO I think that while our system may in fact be for the better, things could just be completely out of control now.  Human nature (i.e., greed) I think has affected everything from the insurance companies (who fight TOOTH AND NAIL to leave you to die) to doctors performing unnecessary treatment because one is more expensive than the other, or for more cold, scientific-minded purposes-- Such as with a friend of a friend who was developing prostate cancer at an early age (mid 30's; predisposition).. The doctor suggested (and recommended) prostate removal surgery, and despite the successes, radiation treatment which has worked for a few politicians and celebrities in the past.  Now he has a weaker if non-existent sex-drive.  I don't trust corporate medicine at all.  :( 

That's one of the big problems also, from the citizen's side-- People don't keep healthy and watch what they eat.  I eat organic / healthy, watch and avoid certain ingredients in food (artificial sweeteners, including high fructose corn syrup), stay far away from fast food and energy drinks, and I jog and do calisthenics 6-days a week.  After turning into a health nut years ago during and after college, one realizes how badly your body feels when they decide to sneak in a burger from a fast-food chain, or an energy drink.  Bleh.

So I agree with OP for the most part.  While socialized health care sounds great, I'm not sure Americans want to deal with higher taxes. Still, the fact that these CEOs and owners of these insurance companies will fight tooth and fucking nail to stay rich and in power.  What we probably need is a reform to our current system to calm down out-of-control costs and the like.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 12:27

>>3
"to doctors performing unnecessary treatment because one is more expensive than the other"

A well educated and informed patient can prevent this. Furthermore, requiring full disclosure and information packages to all patients about ALL possible medical treatments(including holistic/herbal remedies) should be mandatory.

"I don't trust corporate medicine at all."

And you shouldn't, there is a lot of crooked stuff going on and the government SHOULD step in not to socialize the system but to regulate the free flow of information. I was developing glaucoma at a young age and they recommended surgery as my only course of action. I went to a herbalist (and starting becoming a 'health nut') and now all signs of glaucoma are gone and my dry eye syndrome as well.

"After turning into a health nut years ago during and after college, one realizes how badly your body feels when they decide to sneak in a burger from a fast-food chain, or an energy drink."

Yeah, really. Whenever I try to go back to my old way of doing things it feels TERRIBLE. If I don't take my herbal supplements or nutritional supplements then I am so tired and unable to concentrate I wonder how I ever functioned before becoming healthy.

"While socialized health care sounds great, I'm not sure Americans want to deal with higher taxes."

Problem is most Americans consider it to be "free" healthcare and don't consider the fact they will be paying more than they already are especially if they are healthy. It's not free, it's slower care and it solves none of the current problems plaguing our society health wise. It's just a different way of distributing the money making people think it's better.

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Samhuinn at 13 Jun 2008: 12:31

This is an interesting discussion, and I hope the discourse remains civil. It's happened on this board before, after all. :)

Does anybody who lives in a country with this method of health care dispersal have an opinion?

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at 13 Jun 2008: 16:21

>>1 I'm glad you're living in a comfortable situation with plenty of money and not a care in the world other than the need to bitch about the "has nots." How insensitive you are!

I'm sitting here right now with severe cavities, with no insurance and no way to afford getting them fixed or pulled. You can't imagine the pain I'm in. I can't get another job in today's economy in San Francisco. I lost my last job due to company wide layoffs due to lack of work, things that aren't my fault.

Not only are you complaining about poor people in need, but you're also going after fat people. Since when is being thin a guarantee against bad health? Never mind that you skinny people tend to be unhappy (as your bitching about poor people shows), but they also tend to have more mental issues, so health-wise, I think it all balances out, don't you? Yeah, I'm overweight. I have low blood pressure, low cholesterol, and actually better reflexes than most people. Am I the exception? Maybe, but your blanket statement with your proposal means that even though being overweight isn't a health factor for me, I'll still be paying more because of prejudices of people like you.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 16:47

>>6
Ask any dentist and they will tell you cavities are IMPOSSIBLE to get in a sugarless diet, that is something you got yourself into. Severe decay is common in those with unhealthy diets. Thanks for proving my point that you should pay more than people who actually care about their health.

Of course even in a bad diet...if you had proper brushing and flossing habits you still wouldn't have developed decay. Even when I was living unhealthily and eating sugar like crazy and even not brushing for TWO YEARS STRAIGHT I still only developed 3 minor cavities so you must really be overdoing it. It takes many years for cavities to develop into a severe state.

"Not only are you complaining about poor people in need"

Did you hear about how they had to plow under crops because poor people they drove out to the farm quit after just a few days because picking asparagus was too hard? Yeah, I don't care about people wanting everything handed to them on a silver plate. Poor people REFUSE WORK that is available if it's too hard. Those people deserve no sympathy.

"Since when is being thin a guarantee against bad health?"

I never said it was. I didn't say 'only fat people are unhealthy' you moron.

"Yeah, I'm overweight. I have low blood pressure, low cholesterol, and actually better reflexes than most people. Am I the exception? Maybe, but your blanket statement with your proposal means that even though being overweight isn't a health factor for me, I'll still be paying more because of prejudices of people like you."

Apparently you aren't taking health into consideration if you are overweight and have severe cavities. Why should I have to pay higher premiums/taxes to take care of dead weight lazy bums like you?

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at 13 Jun 2008: 16:51

>>7
I know you are going to twist my words so a few clarifications;
-Some people are fat because of bad genetics(these people need to work harder than the normal person and I feel for them...but in the same way I had to overcome my own genetic faults they need to as well)
-Some poor people are more than willing to work their ass off for money, work and a chance at a new life. Others are content mooching off the system forever especially if it gives them food, shelter and free healthcare.
-Being thin is not a guarantee of good health and skinny people can be just as unhealthy as fat people.

PROTIP: Insurance companies are already raising the rates of those who live unhealthy lives. Smoking and drinking cause the biggest raise, being fat is another factor but to a smaller degree than smoking/drinking.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 17:25

>>7 "Why should I have to pay higher premiums/taxes to take care of dead weight lazy bums like you?"

This says it all. You're a troll and I'll be reporting you for inciting drama now.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 17:27

>>9
I'm a troll because you allowed yourself to get cavities and overweight despite the freely available information all over the net telling how to avoid such things? Ok.

Go ahead and report me if it makes you feel better about your wrong choices. PROTIP: If you don't want someone to personally insult you then don't insult them you fucking hypocrite.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 17:29

>>10 When did I insult you? You're the one calling me names.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 17:35

>>11
Wow, ok.

I give up trying to have discussions on this board. The people are hopelessly stupid and illogical or trolling assholes.

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Bobtard at 13 Jun 2008: 17:57

>>12

I don't agree with that other guy, but you are being a serious dick to someone who was simply disagreeing with a statement. How do you know he was lazy? I know plenty of people who are conscientious health nuts who, nevertheless, develop health problems. The human body isn't some wonderful, perfectly working machine that will be completely healthy and devoid of flaws or problems if you would only feed it right and exercise. I've never met a single person in my life that has never had any cavities, so your argument that his cavities arose out of pure carelessness is bullshit. I'm not saying I want free health care, but you and others' tendency to shrug anybody who doesn't have perfect health as lazy bums is a big, steaming load of dog shit.

14Report
at 13 Jun 2008: 18:10

>>13
read
>>7
>>8
Those are medical FACTUAL information. The cavities would have quit growing in size the moment he started brushing and flossing regularly after every meal. The fact the cavities are severe shows a lack of health awareness then furthermore a desire to have free medical care thrown at him because it's "not my fault"

I'm done posting here now. I don't have the patience to deal with idiots and so like you said, i'm being a serious dick. So I will just extricate myself from this bored and save myself the brain tumor.

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Bobtard at 13 Jun 2008: 18:23

"So I will just extricate myself from this bored and save myself the brain tumor."

Then what the fuck are you waiting for? STOP POSTING HERE ALREADY.

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Bobtard at 13 Jun 2008: 18:40

For one thing, I wouldn't even be arguing with people like you if you were more "Well, it sucks that you have health problems, but it's not up to us to pay for you", a position I happen to agree with. But most of you have to go and dehumanize people in the act and declare them all lazy bums for being unhealthy.

Yeah, he probably ate some unhealthy food, like pretty much everybody on the goddamn planet. He probably only brushed his teeth two or three times a day instead of after every fucking bite he took like some freaks. Genetics obviously play a role in this. The fact that you went two goddamn years without brushing your teeth and had no major problems is a testament to this. I don't see why you have to look down on people who don't follow a strict diet and health program when you yourself are guilty of the same thing. You only got away with it because you happen to have genetics on your side, unlike most people. And instead of even having sympathy for people (which doesn't even mean that you have to give up part of your paycheck, believe it or not) for not being able to get away with what people like you can, you decide to fault them for it, for being human essentially.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 21:53

>>16
Actually brushing your teeth too hard and too often with toothpaste which has abrasives(all toothpaste) will wear down the enamel in your mouth. It's better to just avoid certain types of food unless you can brush right after eating them or at least use mouthwash to restore the proper acidity to your mouth so that tooth decay can't occur.

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at 13 Jun 2008: 23:55

Well, Dr. >>14 I'm so glad you could share your professional medical opinion.  Here I was under the impression that a person's risk for developing cavities was determined by more than just diet.  For a minute I actually thought acidity of the mouth, contents of tap water, and brushing habits played a part.

Thanks for clearing all that up.

If it's worth anything, I think socialized health care is a great idea that can never succeed in practice. The costs are simply too much and I'd never trust _any_ government not to fuck it up.  It's like giving everybody a pony. Sounds great except for all the shit left behind that somebody has to clean up.

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at at 15 Jun 2008: 06:50

The thing is people dont choose to become unhealthy its a byproduct of many things. Do you wake up one morning and think "I shall eat unhealthy food not exercise and become a fat fuck."

Living in sweden were there is a "free" healthcare i can say i am happy with it. The times i have been to a hospital i have always been treated good. Of course there are these horrorstories about some poor person waiting in line a few years for an operation.

The thing is some people cant afford healthcare and i would rather have a small chunk out of my paycheck be taken to help someone with a chronic disease or a broken leg. Mostly because i take a chunk out of someone elses paycheck to help me and also because i think it is moraly and ethicaly right to help people in need.

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