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/ah

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1Report(capped)
Raven at 4 Sep 2006: 01:14

For a long while, we've been trying to decide how to remedy the problem with /ah being way too crowded. Lately, there seems to be even more frustration over it, so we've decided to just test out a few ideas and have them be heard now instead of later. We also want your feedback.

The biggest problem a lot of people have is that /ah is inundated with toons, a lot of which aren't necessarily underage, but just look that way because of the style. /mem was a failure and something we do not wish to repeat, so we came up with another option. But we don't want to suddenly jump into it if it's going to upset the majority of users. So this is everyone's chance to comment on it.

Basically, we are thinking of allowing toon art which is not obviously cub or underage to be posted outside of /ah. The board they would be posted to would depend on the rest of the content. They would be treated like any other image. The only time an image would be deleted is if it was quite obviously underage (small body with no breasts, for instance), if the poster(s) said it was, or if a large amount of other users found it offensive. All topics and threads specifically for "cub art" would still be /ah only.

How do you all feel about this? Would this be a step toward solving the /ah problem? Do you feel comfortable with toon-style art on the other boards? Or do you think it would cause more problems than it would solve?

Your input will have a large bearing on how this plays out, so I suggest that everyone has their say on this topic.

2Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 01:38

I thought this already is current policy and has been so for a long time. Making more users aware of it should probably help.

3Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 01:50

that sounds like a reasonable solution, time will tell how well it may work.

4Report(capped)
Raven at 4 Sep 2006: 02:15

>>2

No, previously, if the style made the character look underage, despite factors that hinted otherwise, it was sent to /ah. We want to change that policy so that only those images which were made with the intent of being underage, or are otherwise blatantly underdeveloped, would be sent to /ah.

5Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 02:20

Sounds perfect to me.

6Report
DJ at 4 Sep 2006: 04:25

That would be a good thing!

7Report
Ral+ort+tal at 4 Sep 2006: 05:21

Whatever! Geez! Why can't you people just be happy with your PORN? Can't ya just sit down like everybody else and grab your cock and whack it to some furry porn?! Why does everyone have to make a big deal about what goes where? Theres no need for it! All we need is soem loosly orginized porn to wade through! Isn't that the whole reason for this site? Who cares if a pic or two slips out of place?! Seriously! PORN PORN PORN! Thats why I'm here! PORN! Just keep posting the porn,

TO THE MODS:

stop worring about every little gripe and whine and complant you hear. Becuase the more you try to please everyone "Or the mojority" The more people well come up and complain. Its a dirty disgusting and frankly unstopable cycle, And your going to learn it well at this rate. Make some rules,, practice those rules, and on VERY rare ocassion Change the rules. Nothing more, nothing less. Trust me you'll be better off. I had to run my emulation site this way. You wouldn't belive how many letters I got Complaining about stuff, changing stuff, when things where perfectly fine. And when I changed them, to please the masses what happened? A whole knew set of phycos showed up demanding another change. AND IT NEVER ENDS.  Belive me on this.

8Report
Anonymoose at 4 Sep 2006: 05:23

Sounds good to me!

9Report
Anonymoose at 4 Sep 2006: 05:24

>>8

I'm talking about the OP there, not #7.

10Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 08:11

Yes, please do this! If it's not obviously underage, it should be good enough for the regular sections. :P I'm getting really tired of finding the stuff I do visit /ah/ for pushed into the last few pages by all the stuff that looks like it would better fit in the normal sections.

11Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 08:28

attempting to apply a touch of critical reasoning here. (second post in this thread)
part of,, or possibly all of the issue with getting people to place things into the proper place likely revolves around two key things. 1: the poster caring where they post---
and 2: the poster not sharing the same vision of which things would go where. IE: some things to my eyes should be mainstream but others dont think the same. and their are grey areas etc -
effectivky training the users will be the difficult part to address and I caution the mods to paitence with people who just dont get it. 
I'll actually ponder on this and if I come up with any brilliant ideas post them back to here.
I still like the above idea posted by Raven
peace out people
Couger #tripcodegoeshere

12Report(capped)
Raven at 4 Sep 2006: 13:58

>>7

Um.. duh? :P

Everything you said is what we already do. This is the first time we're considering a change in where such a large sum of content goes since /mem died about six months or so ago.

So far, everyone else seems to like the idea.

13Report
peppermint rhino at 4 Sep 2006: 14:04

the ah/ category is pretty broad. maybe some sort of visual censor could be implemented to keep multiple threads from being created aobut the same thing and direct the poster to the oldest thread with that topic

14Report
straydog#3pCIhha3Cw at 4 Sep 2006: 16:13

Where will the line be drawn? Who will make the determination of what is 'too undeveloped'? A lot of people who browse the other boards have NO desire at all to see characters drawn in a way that makes them appear to be underage (whether it was intentional or not).

All I foresee with something like this is someone going "this is obviously underage" and someone stepping in and going "well it wasn't drawn specifically to be underage so it's OK". Who would be in the right? It would boil down to one persons' (a mods' personal view of what is or isn't underdeveloped) decision rather than popular opinion (of what is or isn't underdeveloped).

Frankly, I don't think this is the answer because the majority of toon art (I'm again, assuming you mean Sonic and other such art) IS drawn in a style reminiscent of the original (ie: underdeveloped or 'chibi') and IS depicting characters with underdeveloped traits akin to children. Thus it should remain in /ah/ (because it is not a normal or a commonly accepted fetish/kink) regardless of whether it was drawn to look underage intentionally or not.

That'd be like me drawing a picture of a girl spooging and coloring the spooge a bit too yellow. By your logic I could argue that I didn't intentionally draw the spooge to look like urine, so it's not watersports---regardless if that's what it -looks- like. Please tell me you see the flaw in what you're suggesting. =\

15Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 17:55

It seems like maybe what the mod is getting at is that there are 3 general categories that you can put a lot of furry art into. Stuff that is fully adult, stuff that is clearly underage (meaning babies more or less of varying ages), and then the gray area. The gray area is often made up of young furs who act in a very adult manner, making it hard to tell exactly what their age is. There is a substantive difference between a baby fur in a diaper, holding a rattler while being molested or something, and a teen-looking fur getting into some sort of sexual situation with his friend or something like that. In the first situation, there is no doubt that the intention of the artist is to depict some kind of hard core underage porn. In the second situation, depending on the context of the art (including backround and everything), the intention of the artist might be to create a certain effect (e.g. young love) and the artist might not be very hard core at all. It seems like the mod is asking if people want all of the art that fits into that gray area to automatically be forced into the Ah section, which causes it to become extremely bloated with things that might not be Ah at all, or if those gray area pieces should just go to their normal categories unless they are clearly objectionable.

16Report
Feral Prowler at 4 Sep 2006: 18:23

maybe you could make a "toon" board. i personally hate looking at toon yiff and would rather not see it in any of the boards i frequent...and there is soooo much of it, im sure it would be able to get a good amount of traffic, i mean you have a tentacle board and there arent even NEAR as many of that kinda pic as there are ones for toons.

17Report
Bizzle at 4 Sep 2006: 21:14

It seems like something that a few people could easily ruin for everybody.  "She's not underaged!  She just has small breasts!"  Personally, I would suggest moving the underage-looking stuff to a/.  Ah/ gets plenty of traffic without it, while a/ isn't nearly as busy.  At the very least, it would spread the traffic around.

18Report
ssendas at 4 Sep 2006: 22:07

>>16

i dream of it.

19Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 22:31

A much simpler idea would be to just ban cub art altogether. It's just a cute name for pedophilia.

20Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 22:46

I'm not particularly fond of cub art, but I'm not particularly offended by it either. Either ban all /ah/ content, or none.

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at 4 Sep 2006: 23:02

perhaps a split between streght and other wise contnent, just an idea.

22Report
at 4 Sep 2006: 23:44

a logical approach,  create /cub /scat /vore /zoo /death
(that should thin out the majour postings.) refuse to pander to those who go ooooh thats ew ick yuck. place a disclaimer saying you the mods dont condone this but believe artists have a right to express themselves (neatly divorcing yourself from condoning such) and by having finer very clear catagories  people couldent claim but i dident mispost on purpose, at least they couldent do so as much.
the other benafit is this gives some place for the extra stuff to go that isnt into the main /***

23Report
at 5 Sep 2006: 00:56

>>20
But a lot of /ah/ isn't evil, just gross.

24Report
at 5 Sep 2006: 01:38

Just because you depict evil doesn't mean you are evil. Depictions of evil aren't evil themselves.

25Report(capped) (sage)
Raven at 5 Sep 2006: 02:44

>>16

Since no seems to be able (or willing) to agree on anything else, this looks like it may be the route we will take.

Hopefully no one will have any complaints about that. It truly seems like people make a fuss merely to ruin things for everyone else.

26Report
at 5 Sep 2006: 02:56

>>14
some of us have no desire to see scalies, hooves, feathers, fatsoes, breasts, ect; ad nauseum. so where Does one draw the line? you can please some of the people some of the time or Most of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

and if i could bring up a salient point about "toon" characters like sonic; their minimalist body styles aren't necessarily age linked, more the fact that these are at their heart non-sexual beings, never Meant nor intended to have genitals, just genders. so when someone sexualizes a fundamentally asexual personality you run the risk of dealing with the unpleasant rammifications. don't make a monster then act surprised when it terrorizes tokyo, mmm'kay?

take a character that's been fought over more then once on these boards; kogenta. in the anime/manga he's revealed to not only be centuries if not milennia old, he's also more a sapient concept or embodiment of a spiritual medium, a'la a thoughtform, not a flesh and blood being. he doesn't even Have a sexual identity and just happens to be a male, yet he's constantly depicted as perpetually tweenage or teenage by those who choose to sexualize him. he's ageless, but looks like a 14-18 year old male, depending. and some "speciality" artists make him look younger... don't ask me why, i'm not here to ponder people's kinks.

so how are the mods supposed to address this complicated a concept? this entire discussion could twist in on itself till it's neither coming nor going and never find an answer so why not reach a practical happy medium; cub art is cub art and not usually so diabolically "disguised" as some seem to think, and shota is recognizeable on the same principles, everything else is common sense, if it's a character not Meant to be sexualized it might look funny, deal with it or bow to the mods decision, no more arm-chair furry art police or shouting matches of "OMG it's cub pr0n" because it Looks a little chibi...

27Report
Strega at 5 Sep 2006: 05:24

Allowing 'toon' characters, other than the blatantly underage ones, to be posted in the other boards would help, yes.  -If- you could get people to grasp the change. 

28Report (sage)
at 5 Sep 2006: 13:42

I'm in favor of allowing toon characters on the regular boards as long as they're not *obviously* underage, but I'd also be in favor of a /toon/ or /fan/ board as well. 

Heck, I'd be in favor of a /son/ = sonic board too, just because I think having it nicely ostrasized from everything else would be great.  Then I'd never have to see it, since of all the sonic stuff posted, I think I've only seen a dozen images worth looking at, and the were all by the same guy. 

29Report
straydog#3pCIhha3Cw at 5 Sep 2006: 17:39

>>26

Ah, good ol' 'anon posting'... The problem with your analogy is that "scalies, hooves, feathers, fatsoes, breasts" are widely accepted or 'normal' furry porn and your preference to not see them is, in no way, comparable to someone's desire to not see something that, on some level, could be considered illegal/immoral/ect. Overly fat depictions go in /ah/, as do other more 'extreme' or less commonly accepted fetishes/kinks. Underage characters depicted in sexual situations are neither 'normal' nor widely accepted and thus should remain regulated to boards where other content is also not commonly accepted (ie: the majority doesn't want to see it). You're comparing apples and oranges with your analogy.

I also suggest you go learn the very definition of 'chibi'. It (the style) is SUPPOSED to be reminiscent of a prepubescent figure, comparable to a little person or child. Yes, chibi-style characters are rarely sexualized, but when someone does fan-art in that style and slaps a big dick and balls on it, that does NOT make that character any less 'chibi' with the exception of the genitalia--all it ends up doing is making an otherwise underage character look unnaturally well-endowed...or it makes the character appear like an underage hyper fur, in which case it would still go into /ah/.

Also, Kogenta in the anime does not exhibit traits that one would consider 'chibi'. He exhibits a physique that shows physical maturity---which is really the deciding factor in determining whether something looks underage or not. Most artists follow suit and he is drawn in a similar style. CHIBI depictions where he appears underage (ie: lacking any physical maturity with the exception---as usual---of his cock/balls) should go in /ah/ regardless of the characters' true age or the artists' intentions.

Unfortunately it IS a matter of style and that alone. Regardless if someone doesn't intend to have their characters be labeled as underage/cub porn, if their -style- is one in which the characters show any lack of physical maturity (ie: prepubescent), then it should be regulated to /ah. If an artist doesn't like their stuff being labeled as underage/cub they can go DNP, though I imagine most who draw things that could be considered underage/cub would expect people to think it was such.

30Report
at 6 Sep 2006: 00:07

we really ann't disscusing what goes where and what doesn't belong.
this is about splitting ah
so unless we get a clear cut split, what can be done?

31Report
at 6 Sep 2006: 11:50

>>29

yup. anon, so my differences of personal *opinion* with the demi-god-like artists or real trolls doesn't follow me home. i don't troll, i simply discuss but some people don't share my philosophies about not shitting where one roosts.

and now that we've completely missed the point about social commentary within the fandom, the hypersexualization of everything under the sun, even to and beyond the point of tasteless, and a subtle jibe on perspectives and how people have a tendancy to knee-jerk villainize, badmouth and harass anything they dislike personally till it requires a moderators involvement, that pointless malaise has set in.

i enjoy a good discussion as much as the next person, but you can't really expect anything worthwhile to surface once you've implied someone isn't as knowledgeable as someone else because they attempted to generalize entire genres into half-paragraph long examples. i wasn't aware i'd be expected to give a dissertation, just express an opinion in a discussion while assuring the mods at least one person understands their frustrations at the scope of the problem...

meh...oh well, moving on.

32Report
straydog#3pCIhha3Cw at 6 Sep 2006: 17:11

>>31

Your personal opinion means nothing when you fail to back it up with any proof that you actually feel that way (ie: endorsing it with a name of any sort), and so it could easily just be taken as trolling (even if you do not agree). Someone who tries to discuss something and yet doesn't apply their name makes it seem as though they're not really behind their opinion 100%, or otherwise doesn't want their opinion to be associated with them. That doesn't lend credibility to how self-assured you are, or aren't. Even if it's a bogus name, being able to associate a name with someone gives them stronger footing than someone who chooses to remain anonymous.

But my point wasn't so much that you are posting anonymously and thus you're not as knowledgeable, but rather, that people who post anonymously expect people to take their opinions/views seriously when they aren't even comfortable enough to have said opinions/views associated with their names.

And if you were attempting to engage in a discussion, then you should be prepared when offering your opinion (which contains information that could be proved otherwise by another), for it to be countered by those whose opinions differ from your own.

33Report
at 6 Sep 2006: 22:48

>>32

Chan boards are supposed to be anonymous. Posting with a name is often frowned upon.

Anyone have the link that explains why? I lost it when my HDD died.

34Report
at 6 Sep 2006: 23:33

this is getting way off topic

We need a factor to split. something easy to identify and it should be cleared with everyone first. To business?

35Report
DragonFlame at 6 Sep 2006: 23:47

I think alowing toons in the other boards is an incredibly bad idea. Not only will you have people complaining about what is underage and what isnt but you will have a sonic thread or even worse a sonic thread for each character in each section.
It will get quite messy indeed.
If /Ah is getting too crowded then split it up. I think >>22 was on the right path. Maybe a /Ah Toon , /Ah Non Violent , /Ah Violent.
Just a suggestion.
Of course it could be split up many differnt ways.
I know that you mods are a bit concerned about making a new board after what happened with Mem but I think you may have a problem just allowing toons in the other boards.

36Report(capped)
Raven at 7 Sep 2006: 01:26

>>35

That's why we're adding a /toon board. It should be some time in the next few days.

37Report
at 7 Sep 2006: 05:04

>>36
About /toon/: will mature appearing cartoon characters that would have normally been posted to, say, /s/, /f/, or /m/ be posted on /toon/ instead? Will /toon/ be a "gay bar" and "hooters" in one like /a/ and /ah/?

38Report(capped)
Xenofur at 7 Sep 2006: 06:57

/me will be totally honest now

About /toon/: will mature appearing cartoon characters that would have normally been posted to, say, /s/, /f/, or /m/ be posted on /toon/ instead?

optimally, no. realistically tho there is quite a part of the userbase of fchan that is simply too stupid/ignorant to understand or even understand to attempt these things, even if we tried.

Will /toon/ be a "gay bar" and "hooters" in one like /a/ and /ah/?

yes. no cookies for people who want to sexualize things other people made and don't even try to actually give it a body that would be fit for such things.

39Report(capped) (sage)
Raven at 7 Sep 2006: 08:27

Since we have finally solved this problem, there's no longer a need for the thread to continue.

If you have any questions regarding the new board, they should be address in the following thread:

http://fchan.hentaiplanet.net/read.php/dis/1157635183/

Thank you! :3

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