fchan

I prefer the amended bible myself... you know, the new testament.  The ideals expressed there, if followed, would result in the best of people. ^_^

Don’t blame the bible.  It’s the people who bring the hate and intolerance.

>>39
What you quoted are passages that are not meant to be taken literally. You have to be familiar with the speech of the time. Remember that most of the Bible is translated from ancient Hebrew, and it doesn't always translate well. The phrases in question are supposed to be taken to mean that you should not devote yourself to God unless you are willing to give up everything of worldly value.

>>40 Actually, those quotes are from the New Testament, so they were translated from Greek, not Hebrew. Apparently you don't even know what you're talking about. And it's not nearly as hard to translate as you claim. The word here in Luke is "miseo" which means hate, despise, or detest. There's no ambiguity.

There are OTHER passages that DO simply say you must give up worldly things:
Luke 14:33  "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

But if that's all that was meant, why not just stop there? Why bother saying that you actually have to HATE your family? There's no reason to say this unless this is what is meant. And your claims about figurative language are falling apart, because you won't answer >>36 who brought up a very good point:

>>"Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.--1Sam.15:2-3"
>>Much as i dislike getting into this sort of mess, I do have to ask you: the above is symbolism for what?

If a loving god wrote the Bible, it should be clear and simple to understand, and it shouldn't be filled with the language of hate and violence.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/whynotchristian.html

The Lego Bible:
http://thebricktestament.com/the_teachings_of_jesus/on_peace/mt10_34a.html
http://thebricktestament.com/the_teachings_of_jesus/on_family/lk12_51.html

>>39

Well, I don't know what to say to you really.  When I read the bible, I see words of wisdom that transcend the age.  It provides guidance and meaning in my life, and I appreciate it as such.  To me, it doesn’t even matter whether the stories are true, or whether it really happened or not.  What matters is that it teaches goodness.  What one does from there is up to them.

There are many good arguments against Christianity.  Believe me... I’ve heard many of them.  I’ve seen the discrepancies in the bible pointed out, and heard people philosophies about the impossibility of God, and the hypocrisy of the faithful.   I won’t lie to you either... it hurts my feelings when people do this.  I don’t understand this need they seem to have to attack me and my friends.  The point is, though, that I’ve heard the reasoning behind a lot of atheists.

I just don’t think that those reasons are an excuse to give up something that has done nothing but good in my life.  Whether there is a God or not, by following the teachings, I have guidance.  I only need to look inside, and go by those teachings, and I know the right thing to do.  I may not always do it, but I know what I should and shouldn’t be doing, and I owe that to my faith.

The bible itself is a book... words passed down for thousands of years, and translated many times.  I was raised on the King James bible, and many people have, in belligerent manner, pointed out to me that King James was a cruel man with a definite agenda.  To them, this completely negates any authenticity in the bible.  To me, it reinforces my faith, because even though the words have been mistreated and twisted time and time again, the wisdom is still there, providing guidance to any who seek it.

>>44
"I don’t understand this need they seem to have to attack me and my friends."

Gee, I dunno...  Institutionalized homophobia, bombing abortion clinics, failing to grasp the idea of 'seperation between church and state', not to mention frequent aggressive and systematic spread of Christian dogma to anyone and everyone whether they like it or not?

And if that's not enough, the very thing your doing right there, pulling the old 'poor little me' card as if Christians have it so bad, everyones against you, blah, blah, blah, all while professing a complete lack of understanding about why that might be. 

So you think you need God and a book of bullshit to be a good person and make moral decisions.  That's great, good for you.  Now if y'all could just STFU about it, we'd get along fine.  But you can't, because you have the arrogant idea that the rest of the universe needs to not only hear about the 'good word' but buy into it as well.  That's *not* cool. 

Non-Christians take issue with Christians because you won't leave us alone.  Christians haven't been oppressed in whole scale lots since the day Constantine converted on his deathbed and declared you folks the winners.  Yet since that time, you fuckers have destroyed other religions wholesale, sacked temples, robbed people, went on muerderous crusades, burned millions of women and all in the name of "my God's the BEST, he loves ME more than YOU!!"

And yet you can't figure out why that might piss people off, because you're brain releases happy little chemicals in a Pavlovian response every time you hear a hymm or read about some smuck getting nailed up for stepping on the wrong toes. 

Even in the modern age, you folks can't leave us alone.  You come to fucking Fchan, of all places, to feed us your BS and then hand us a little sob story when we don't want to eat it.  Ever Christian who gets into a position of power has to parade his imaginary friend around with him.  You bring God into politics, and force the non-denominational society to accept Christian morality, all while taking the stance that it's fully justified and the only 'good' possible choice.  You whine and bitch and pull strings until we have to teach our children your BS right along side mathmatics and english.  Everytime we turn around, there's some fucking Christian meddling in things that they should just stay the hell out of. 

And you can't figure out why we might take issue with that.  Which just makes you seem stupid, on top of being arrogant, self-righteous and overbearing. 

It's enough to make a guy want to start a violent, anti-Christian cult, to start burning churches and lynching Christians in the streets, just to give you morons an idea what it's like being on the other side of the intolerant fanaticism your 'faith' has spawned, that's killed millions of people that did nothing wrong other than not being Christian, not agreeing that your way is the 'only' or 'best' way, not feeling they needed the sanction of a bunch of "mistreated and twisted words" to live a live that was a good and fullfilling. 

You want to quit being thought of as the 'enemy' quit being that enemy.  Try being a nice, quiet Christian, and let others alone to be the nice quiet Pagans and Buddhists and whatever else they decide to be.  Then we won't even notice you, and won't have any reason to attack you and your friends for being a bunch of pushy holier-than-thou assholes.  What an idea, eh? 

>>45
Why don't you just stamp 'Stupid fantical baptist' on your forehead, bud?  Chick tracts are a fucking joke even to other Christians. 

Which brings up another point - How do Christians expect the rest of the world to buy into your 'one true God' bullshit, when the number of branches and sects of the Christian faith gives lie to the very 'truth' they pretend to have and vigerously endorse? 

Even were I to convert today, it'd take me a freaking week just to sort out what particular bit of dogmatic bullshit fit my new found vision and understanding of God best.  Maybe if God got his shit together long enough to present a united front, I might be a bit more inclined to kowtow to his greatness.  :P

>>45

Right. Not having electricity is an acceptable excuse for committing genocide.

I'm sure glad I wasn't born an Amalekite. Wrong place, wrong time, no electricity, uh oh, wiped off the face of the earth, even to my last donkey.

>>44
"To me, it doesn’t even matter whether the stories are true, or whether it really happened or not.  What matters is that it teaches goodness."

Okay, you obviously don't follow the "kill gay people" and "stone disobedient children to death" stuff. So how do you make a decision about what parts to follow and what parts not to follow?

Do you just listen to your conscience to make the decision?

I just want to point out that the people here who bring up the point that Christians preach hatred are using way more hateful language than any Christian I've ever talked to.

>>36
>>55

Um... I can't speak for Havoc... but really, I don't see this as being all that complicated.  If you're skeptical, you believe that passage was written by a man, with an agenda... period.  If you're a believer, the idea is that judgement is reserved for God, not people.  People can't go out and kill people just because they have a problem with them, because they lack sufficient wisdom to make that decision.  In that passage, it isn't a person passing judgement, it's God... and working within that reasoning, the killers haven't sinned, and those killed will be judged based on their actions.

Either way, there's an answer.  I don't think the point >>36 made was really all that earth shattering. :/

>>53
"That’s a very hateful rant.  I can’t really think of much to say though.  Most of what you said is overgeneralized, overstated, or simply untrue."

In other words, you can't bother to formulate a decent argument, so "you're lying" is the best you can do?  Wow, I'm convinced.  History must be wrong, and all those folks never actually died in the name of the Christian God. 

As for the rest of it, I'm sorry "Christianity doesn't kill people, people kill people," is as pathetic of an excuse as "Gun's don't kill people, people kill people." 

Christianity is not a philosophy, it's a religion, there's a difference.  You can't just look back on the evils your religion has inspired, provoked or condoned and decide in hindsight that 'those people weren't really Christians'.  They were Christians, as inconvenient as that might be to your "god is all about love" stance,  and they were as fully convinced that God was on their side about killing 'the heathens' as you seem convinced that Christianity is *really* about peace, love and understanding...   Despite frequent evidence to the contrary.  I guess that's why they call it 'faith'.  Well, *that*, and the fact that 'blind irrational ignorance' sounds so distatefully 'hateful'.  :P

>>59
"I'm glad tons of families in America have a Muslim/Hindu/Jewish head on a pike in their front yard..."

Whlie there aren't any of those particular demonstrations of patriotic religious faith dotting the neighborhoods of America, you can bet your ass that there's a sizeable number of people that would love to be able to get away with that grisly little do-it-yourself project.

Here's your problem. The ideal Christian is- as currently practiced- tolerant, understanding, non-judgemental and a reasonable person.  They are moderate people, willing to allow that an individual should be permitted to come to God in their way and that man can only Guess as His ways. They're in the minority, if you go by history, the worldwide Christian population and a number of current polls and research. The majority are far less tolerant of difference, like to be judgemental and will gladly toss reason out the window if it in any way conflicts with their belief system and whose idea of moderation is to not outright commit genocide on the unbeleivers- at leat not until they can get away with it. Those are the people that you're taking flak for.

Christianity isn't the only religion in that state. I can point to almost any other major religion- and a greater number of cults and splinter groups- that have similar adherents and practice the same ways and means.

Here's some advice. The only defense of your religious beliefs should be of+your+ religious beliefs. If you attempt to speak for the yahoos, you'll lose.

Okay, guys. While I'm glad this hasn't turned into an all out flame war despite some of the anger presented, we do have a rule that threads need to stay either on the topic of furry or the website. It's okay to try and meet people of a similar mindset in the fandom, but arguing non-furry related beliefs isn't on the menu. I've said it before, so in the name of fairness, I have to say again.

However. If you really like discussing these things with each other, feel free to join IRC and do it there (just in a polite manner free of flaming). We allow a lot more general conversation in live chat than we do on the site, itself.

>>63
Well, I agree with everything you said except: "There is no proof either way.  Some of us accept it on faith that it is the word of God.  This is no different than taking what science tells us is fact."

Science can be verified by experimentation and observation. Scientific facts can be conclusively proven. Religious beliefs cannot. They are two different cases.

Furry:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/beastiality/lv18_23a.html

Right, well, anyone who wants to discuss or debate with the less-inflammatory atheist in this thread, can reach me at bamboosoup@nodns.org ... no yelling please. Later.

>>68

As I said previously, you may also feel free to use our IRC channel.

>>71

Did furry turn you away from Christianity? If not then I don't think Raven will let us go into depth. But if so, then that should be an interesting story.

What the hell is this aborn! thing all about?

Yes, deleted message. I keep reminding people that threads need to stay on-topic, but no one seems to listening. Perhaps I have to start banning.. :/