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illogical arguments

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1Report
Ohtar at 12 Oct 2007: 17:57

ok this has been bugging me forever now and im hoping someone SOMEWHERE can shed some light on this. One of my best deviant friends almost had to shut down her site cuz she was getting trolled so hardcore with petitions and flamers over her 'sucky art'. shes been banned from almost every site on the internet, and even her FA is being trolled now.
Ok. I get the hint. There are people who dont like her art.
Heres what i dont get.
There are hundreds, perhaps MILLIONS of artists who cant draw their way out of a paper bag. I'm talking the MSPaint users and the stick men doodlers and the 20 something yr old who draw like they are still in pre-grade school. THESE PEOPLE DONT GET FLAMED TO THIS EXENT. Hell, even -I- get flamed for the odd picture. Ive drawn things that have almost gotten me in legal trouble and I have NEVER seen a petition to get me off of not just the iste but the entire internet altogether!
People pay for this woman's work. Shes making more money off this hobby than most of us are. Her art is wonderfully coloured and she draws better than some professionals ive seen.
So why her? Why out of the billions of artists online, is the entire universe actually trying to elimate just this one human from the internet? I have never in my life seen drama on this level before! Can someone, ANYONE tell me why the ENTIRE WORLD is against her?
And 'shes a shitty artist' is NOT a good excuse cuz chances are she draws better than you or someone you know.

2Report
at 12 Oct 2007: 18:35

>>1
Is this DoDeDo you are speaking of?

3Report
at 12 Oct 2007: 20:05

Because it's always easier to take the piss of people who're better known than you; and given basement dwelling trolls fall so far down the ladder they have to compete with protazoa and public crabs for attention, anyone with ANY amount of popularity looks like fair game.

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Zi at 12 Oct 2007: 20:31

Humans, while relatively harmless when alone, quickly gather into large groups when provoked, a behavior which has the mysterious effect of an asymptotic reduction of overall IQ toward zero as the population of the group increases. The larger the group, the stupider the things they can be made to do and believe. With the advent of mass communication and the internet, stupidity has been exponentially on the rise throughout the world.

Humans in groups do not need explanations, all they need is a unifying purpose and a desire to continue to exist as a group to become infinitely narrow minded. The desire to exist as a group supersedes the desire for rationality, and becomes the single purpose for action. Because the humans know, the only thing unifying them is this activity, and when unified, they are fearless. The satisfaction they derive from the activity is a feeling of power and strength that the individuals composing the group would otherwise recognize that they lack. This satisfaction is not something they are either unwilling or unable to bring themselves to realize the true cause of, but their subconsious recognizes the satisfaction, and so urges forward this activity which brings it.

To prevent themselves from acknowledging their own individual weakness, they unify, under any excuse that seems convenient, although most often out of fear, and her daughter, hatred. It is not hate that blinds, but fear, a person must already be blind in order to hate. And when a person has no specific object to hate, they choose an object to hate.

My condolences to any person who comes to the hatred of any large number of people. It sucks.

Just my two lumens.

5Report
Nick at 12 Oct 2007: 22:30

Truth: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

[Why out of the billions of artists online, is the entire universe actually trying to elimate just this one human from the internet?]

Here's a BIG part of the problem, and a BIG part of the perceived drama you see.  The fact is that there is only a handful of people, a very tiny percentage, who are doing what you say. You shouldn't focus on a negative vocal minority because for every person who "flames" her art there are probably 100 people who enjoy it.

I could be wrong, but I have a hard time believing that "shes been banned from almost every [art, I assume] site on the internet".  Anyone who has enough of a presence to draw fans will also draw anti-fans. That's just how it is, and unfortunately if you can't handle that then you're probably better off removing your art from FA and ignoring people who ask why you did what you did.

>>4 Yes.

6Report (sage)
at 13 Oct 2007: 02:49

Reasons? That person espousing unpopular/reprehensible opinions. The target having an abrasive or repellent personality or appearing to have such. A perception of unwarranted arrogance or hypocrisy on the artist's part. Questionable actions of that person in the past. "Pick on the green monkey." Lulz seeking and mob behavior. Random statistical chance and that person unlucky enough to ideally match the mean average.

It's hard to answer your question without knowing the details. What is this artist being accused of? What are "they" upset about? There's almost always two sides to any situation of this sort, so having only an abbreviated version of one half isn't enough to go on.

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at 13 Oct 2007: 08:01

You could always check the Encyclopedia Dramatica and see if your friend's there.

That's usually a good reason for the flames. :P

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Shaitan at 13 Oct 2007: 09:27

>>7 So because someone is put on this website, it's a "good reason?" Why does that make it a good reason? Can't you make your own decisions on what to do and who to flame?

If you woke up tomorrow and you had a ton of flames in your E-mail because your name was on the website, would you be perfectly OK with it? And what is your name and E-mail address so when you can claim "yes" we can make it happen?

9Report
at 13 Oct 2007: 10:29

>>8
Most of the people on Dramatica really do deserve to be flamed. Yes, some of the articles exaggerate some details but when they have screenshots of ridiculous posts and quotes that show how hypocritical, illogical or insane someone is...well it's hard to argue with evidence. I personally won't waste time out of my day to flame these people because I consider them lost causes but people need a REASON to act logical, reasonable and sane in life. That reason usually comes in the form of social consequences or in this case, internet flames.

Would you rather we just sit back and watch as some of these people on Dramatica trace and steal art calling it their own? The OP won't tell us any of the details so it's hard to determine if this artist deserves flames but saying no one deserves to be flamed is ignorant. Most the people on Dramatica deserved to be flamed because they are either art thieves(tracers who don't give credit), racists or hypocrites.

If I acted like some of those people I would EXPECT to be flamed for being so freaking retarded. This is a day and age where every single thing you say CAN and WILL be used against you. People need to be more careful when they talk.

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ohtar at 13 Oct 2007: 13:17

>>6
she is being accused of nothing more than bad art as far as I can see. She invented her own species somewhere along the line and a few people bitched about it, then a few more joined in, now people are flaming her without ever having seen her art.
The last straw for me was seeing the petitions being spammed on her account to get her off the internet. I mean, how stupid does someone have to be to think that because they collect signatures someones gonna listen to them?

>>9
people may need a reason to act logical and sane but it would seem that people dont need a reason to act like morons. Im not mentioning most of the details because even though a good many people in here probably already know who im talking about, just mentioning her name and the full details of her supposed 'crime against art' would defiantly get ME flamed for being a fan and possibly banned from yet another site for feeding the drama trolls. Im not willing to do taht cuz ive grown to like it here and I'm tired of logging into a site to see 'your ip has been permanently blocked' just for standing up for a friend.
Im merely trying to comprehend the insanity behind trolls and flamers I suppose.

11Report
Shaitan at 13 Oct 2007: 13:19

>>9 But it's not up to you or me or anyone to police people being idiots. Further, the people who flame people do it mostly because they enjoy the time they spend doing it and watching the results rather than out of any desire to make someone act logical. Finally, how is a bunch of E-mail going to change a person's behavior?

Honestly, the argument "for" flaming is a perfect example of an illogical argument.

12Report
at 13 Oct 2007: 17:41

>>11
Guess what? Obesity rates are going up and can you guess why? A well researched study says it's because of a growing acceptance for obese people. So not only do we live unhealthy lifestyles but now it's socially acceptable to do so. It's no small wonder why the world is full of idiots, disrespectful people, hateful people, unhealthy people, etc etc etc.

How is a bunch of e-mail going to change their behaviour? Well first off if their friends stopped supporting their obviously bad behaviour a lack of friends would lead to one of two things. Positive change or depression/suicide. The e-mails are just the nail in the coffin, unable to make any new friends they must come to the conclusion that what they are doing is wrong or flawed.

Now don't even START with the "you don't have a right to judge people" speech because I know it's coming. Certain things are just obviously wrong and 99.9% of the people can agree on those things. Art theft/tracing, racism/hatred and unhealthy diets/obesity are just a few of those things.

I don't have to look very far into your response to realize you are one of those pro-politically correct, anti-againstanything type of people. So you go do that, encourage your obese friends to eat those 30 bags of oreos a day while never exercising because you wouldn't want to experience the negative aspects of life in confronting them about their obvious problem. Then enjoy when they finally one day have a heart attack and die before your very eyes all because you were too afraid to speak the fuck up.

Yes, some of the flaming is just plain mischevious and malicious in nature but some of us(like myself) want to make people recognize that all the other people are fucking LYING to them. Look at deviantart, it's all glowing "you are so awesome" remarks no matter how bad the art is. What's wrong with saying "I can see you put effort into this but there is many flaws with the art. Here are some links that may help you learn and improve"? Huh?

13Report
at 13 Oct 2007: 18:20

>>12
Well said =3

14Report
at 13 Oct 2007: 19:06

>>12
That gave me goosebumps.  It's too bad that more people can't think like this, half of the world's problems would be automatically solved...

15Report
at 13 Oct 2007: 21:13

>>7 here.

"reason" was the wrong word. "explanation" would've probably been a better one.

Although I agree wholeheartedely with >>12 at this point.

16Report(capped)
FoxStar at 13 Oct 2007: 21:21

>>12 That's just fantastic. Simply a marvel.

17Report
John Madden at 13 Oct 2007: 21:30

Does she like football?!

18Report
FurryFox at 13 Oct 2007: 21:40

>>12
YOU DONT HAVE A RIGHT TO JUDGE PEOPLE
haha..jk..what u said is so true
it is a shame that only some people think like that..

19Report
Shaitan at 14 Oct 2007: 01:40

>>12 You're very wrong about me on many of the things you have assumed about my personal character.

"A well researched study says it's because of a growing acceptance for obese people. So not only do we live unhealthy lifestyles but now it's socially acceptable to do so. It's no small wonder why the world is full of idiots, disrespectful people, hateful people, unhealthy people, etc etc etc."

Your conclusion makes no sense. So a well researched study says there is more acceptance of obesity. How does that lead to the world being full of idiots, disrespectful people, hateful people, etc?

"The e-mails are just the nail in the coffin, unable to make any new friends they must come to the conclusion that what they are doing is wrong or flawed."

Sending people flame E-mails will not make them lose the support of their friends, nor will it prevent them from making new friends.

...

You know what? Nobody here is listening to me at all. Whoever is posting this is one of the most illogical people I've ever had the displeasure of having a discussion with in forums, and it's sad that nobody else can see how empty every one of his arguments is. Since there's no point in me pointing it out, then I'll stop.

20Report
Rynac at 14 Oct 2007: 02:28

>>19

"How does that lead to the world being full of idiots, disrespectful people, hateful people, etc?"

It's called toleration. We (at least I) were taught to "put up" with other people's behavior, just because "that's how they are." (Boys will be boys etc)

"Sending people flame E-mails will not make them lose the support of their friends, nor will it prevent them from making new friends."

I believe he did not say anything about losing friends. See how the first poster is still defending him/her? However, it is possible that the flaming (if on many different sites) could prevent making new friends. For example: "Hey! Whats up guy?" "I recognize your name, you're that crappy artist everyone hates, I think I'll hate you too." I've actually seen this happen before with some other person before.

So, >>12 is indeed logical, you just lack the intelligence to put together what he is saying. =\

21Report
at 14 Oct 2007: 02:53

>>19
We obviously ARE listening to you. You're just confusing the term "listening" with "agreeing," like most people tend to do.

Flaming for the sake of flaming is stupid, I think we all know that. What we're saying is that in some cases, there is merit to the "flames," and sometimes it's just negative criticism that's being taken as "flaming" because the person doesn't want to acknowledge what they're saying.

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Shaitan at 14 Oct 2007: 03:58

>>20 "...you just lack the intelligence to put together what he is saying."

Now you've gone and made it personal. Insulting me doesn't make it OK to flame people. But it does bring up another valid point, that people who support flaming are predisposed to negative thoughts about things they don't agree with (or people who don't agree with them). And yet, the flamers themselves often hide behind their right to disagree.

"I believe he did not say anything about losing friends."

From original post: "Well first off if their friends stopped supporting their obviously bad behaviour..."

The whole paragraph implies that "stopped supporting" in this case means stopped being their friend. Otherwise, why would they need new friends?

>>21 "We obviously ARE listening to you. You're just confusing the term 'listening' with 'agreeing,' like most people tend to do."

I've done no such thing.

23Report
at 14 Oct 2007: 09:56

>>22
"in this case means stopped being their friend"

I don't know about you, but I usually call my friends on their bad behavior. They may not appreciate it, they may think I'm being a jerk, but I'm not doing it to piss them off. I'm doing it to try to convince them to stop, because I'm their friend.

"I've done no such thing"

Well, I "listened" to you, meaning I read what you said and understood it. But I disagree regardless. Maybe you're the exception, but quite often, when someone goes "you're not listening to what I said" it's usually because someone's disagreeing, or picking apart the argument.

24Report
Shaitan at 14 Oct 2007: 14:59

>>23 "I don't know about you, but I usually call my friends on their bad behavior."

Do you do it with flames in their E-mail box?

If a friend of mine is being inappropriate, I'll let them know of my opinion as well, and that, in my opinion, is the "right way" to help someone adjust to the social climate. Getting spammed flames from people they don't even know doesn't do a damn thing.

Back to the subject of flaming to bring about changes in people's behavior... If this really works, then we should just send flames to North Korea. That will make them not use nuclear weapons against the US and their allies, right? And the Iraq war, let's just send the "enemy combatants" a bunch of E-mail. That should put an end to sectarian violence within an hour! Same with Iran! Flame them for world peace!

And if you think I'm being ridiculous, I think the idea of flaming an artist just because you don't like their art, or flaming an asshole because they're an asshole is just as ridiculous and accomplishes just as much.

25Report
at 14 Oct 2007: 19:31

If she like football, then she would be drawing pictures of football related things, not furry porn

26Report
at 14 Oct 2007: 21:20

>>24
"do you do it with flames in their inbox?"

No, and when did I say that? The original argument was that these people being flamed might have potential bad behavioral problems.

Then the statement was made that if their friends would stop "tolerating" this bad behavior, perhaps the person would change said behavior. You took this to mean that they stop being their friend.

And thus, I explained how I call my friends on their bad behavior, because I *am* their friend.

Maybe you're not the one listening here. We've said several times that flaming for the sake of flaming is ridiculous, unnecessary, and mean-spirited. What we're trying to say is that maybe there are other reasons why a person's being flamed. Maybe he's a self-righteous prick that won't get his head out of his own ass. Maybe he acts like an emo kid to get sympathy and free stuff from people out of pity.

The stupid flames are bad, what I'm saying is that some people "flame" because of a person's negative behavior and demeanor. You can usually tell what kind of "flames" these are because there's usually a decent argument in there somewhere, regardless of whether it's presented well or not.

And on the global political scale, we DO "flame" other countries, just in our own way. We don't send mass emails, that's just...silly. We use economic sanctions. We publicly condemn their behavior. In extreme cases we make threats of military action.

I will flame an asshole for being an asshole, because in the end, it has the potential for change. Flaming a person's art won't, but flaming their attitude has possibility. It sows the seeds of doubt in their mind that maybe, just maybe, their behavior is unacceptable.

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Shaitan at 14 Oct 2007: 21:48

"I will flame an asshole for being an asshole, because in the end, it has the potential for change. Flaming a person's art won't, but flaming their attitude has possibility. It sows the seeds of doubt in their mind that maybe, just maybe, their behavior is unacceptable."

And MY whole point is that it doesn't. You can't make someone change themselves by flaming them or putting them on a list on some website to be flamed. It's just asshattery, plain and simple.

28Report
Nick at 14 Oct 2007: 21:59

[And MY whole point is that it doesn't. You can't make someone change themselves by flaming them or putting them on a list on some website to be flamed. It's just asshattery, plain and simple.]

If your goal with this tirade is to try and explain the logic behind "asshattery" then good luck. People act like assholes all the time without good reason. Jealousy, envy, "bad day at the office", whatever.

The Internet just exacerbates the problem. I posted this earlier, but obviously it was missed. The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is absolutely valid: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

29Report
at 14 Oct 2007: 23:10

>>27
Flaming someone for the reasons stated above in many of the posts has the POTENTIAL for change. The keyword in that sentence is POTENTIAL. Where as just sitting around doing nothing has the potential to do absolutely nothing.

You know what? Bullies in highschool while mean and hated at the time DID inspire some people to change. There was a string of Maury and Montel Williams episodes that showcased bullied teens who were obese or flawed in some way. They used that tortured childhood to grow stronger and rise to the top, getting good jobs, getting in outstanding physical shape and overall improving. Some of the bullied wanted an apology(and they got it usually) and others simply thanked their tormentors for encouraging them to rise above.

The point is flaming, insulting and otherwise putting down of people who do unacceptable things can sometimes create a positive outcome. Your arguments are becoming more illogical by the minute and they aren't even supported by any facts or theories for that matter. Your personal opinion does not equal the world's opinion and the truth does not end at YOU.

30Report
Shaitan at 15 Oct 2007: 06:50

>>29 Montel Williams (and other similar talk shows) is as real as professional wrestling. I know people who were paid to pretend to have a "dynamic social issue" on national TV and it was pure make-believe.

Using Montel Williams as your "proof" and then calling me illogical... Is this where I get to point at you and laugh?

31Report
at 15 Oct 2007: 08:40

>>30
Just because talk shows are pretty fake doesn't mean it never happens.

32Report
at 15 Oct 2007: 11:30

>>30
I'm starting to think you are a troll because every single one of your counter-arguments consists of trying to discredit the argument without providing any evidence of your own. Regardless of the fact those shows are somewhat-staged(less so than Jerry Springer) it doesn't change the fact that bullied teens generally either go one of two directions. Deep depression or self-improvement. Everyone reacts differently to stress and conflict, some rise above and other just fail.

If you don't have any evidence, theories or actual logical arguments to offer then just shut up already. You are making a giant ass of yourself.

33Report
at 15 Oct 2007: 12:11

Yeah. Art theft is up there with racism.

Hitler was probably an art thief.

34Report
at 15 Oct 2007: 16:06

>>33
nowai, I never the guy was evil but and art thief too? - Truly satan reincarnate!

35Report
FurryFox at 15 Oct 2007: 18:10

well..this thread is true to its name..
haha

36Report
Shaitan at 15 Oct 2007: 18:37

>>31 "Just because talk shows are pretty fake doesn't mean it never happens."

Can you think of one instance where it does?

>>32 "I'm starting to think you are a troll because every single one of your counter-arguments consists of trying to discredit the argument without providing any evidence of your own."

I, a troll? You're the one defending cyber-bullying, and I'm a troll? Hah! Hahahahaha!!! No, seriously, pull the other one!

Until you have evidence that proves flames are anything more than bullying because the flamer disagrees with the target, I have no reason to provide evidence to support the opposite.

"You are making a giant ass of yourself."

And once again, you disagree with someone, and it's OK to flame them. I disagree with you, and you start calling me names. So, what, you are allowed to disagree with someone and do whatever you want to them, but I'm not allowed to disagree with you?

"Deep depression or self-improvement."

And who decides what would be an improvement? The flamer? The bully? That is nothing more than shallow self-serving baloney.

37Report
Shaitan at 15 Oct 2007: 18:39

>>33 Actually, Hitler did fancy himself an artist and did a few knock-offs...

Apparently, all the critics of his day thought he sucked...

38Report
at 15 Oct 2007: 19:37

>>36
Once again you prove yourself incapable of backing up your arguments with facts, evidence or even something as simple as theories. You simply pick and choose key sentences in which you can criticize seemingly unable to COMPREHEND the entirety of the post you are replying to.

39Report
Shaitan at 15 Oct 2007: 21:04

>>38 This is how real life works. You make a claim, in this case that flaming is a positive thing. So prove it. You can't prove it.

But I can prove that flaming someone for no reason other than a difference of opinion is a bad thing.

http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/

This is an organization that opposes cyber bullying, including posting people on public websites as targets for flaming, and it lists the negative consequences that such attacks has on the victims of cyber bullying. This is one of several. You want proof? Google for it.

Once again, you prove yourself to be a complete and total asshole by defending the victimization of people anonymously via the Internet.

40Report
at 15 Oct 2007: 23:14

>>39
Uh huh, you keep telling yourself that. I provided a multitude of evidence and theories which you COMPLETELY IGNORED and refused to offer counter-arguments for. Everyone agreed with me and no one agreed with you, yet another clue that maybe just maybe my arguments were reasonable. I hate dealing with people like you, you make me hate the world and think there is no hope.

I suggest the mods threadstop this since it's only going downhill fast. If they don't, i'm done posting in this thread. I know a stubborn internet idiot when I see one.

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