fchan

discussion

The value of words, etc.

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1Report
Fog at 29 Nov 2007: 17:11

Alright, because this is, in fact, /dis, I'd like to bring up a discussion about the value of spelling, grammar, punctuation, and capitalization.

Now, before I get to the actual discussion, I salute anyone who is so genius and witty to post an intentionally badly written post beneath this one. Good on ya'.

Now, on to the questions I pose:

1q. Is there value in proper-English, or proper-anylanguage, for that matter, on the internet... or is it a waste of time?

        1a. To this, my personal response is yes... Why? I see it as having value because it is more organized. Sentences don't run together. Example: If there were no periods or commas in this post, it may be kind of annoying to read. In my opinion, punctuation and capitalization are the most important part of organization. I won't hold it against someone if their spelling is bad IF they are willing to punctuate. I think punctuated sentences are easier to read and are actually more effecient than a message that took 2 seconds to type, but 20 minutes to decipher.

2q. Stereotypes associated with spelling/grammar/etc?


    2a. Personally, I see two common stereotypes of people who take the literary quality of their posts are the following:

~Up tight, and desperately needing to chill...
Or, the more common observation I've noticed...
~They type nice; I bet they're smart! (It is a phallusy [mispelled intentionally,] but I have noticed that it is common.)



3.WTQ?!? (Little quips/discussion points:)
Q: Number of end-of-sentence punctuation marks... is there a maximum?
A: Personally, I think the maximum should be three. Whether it be "OBLARGH?!?" "Stupid..." or "WRYYYYY!!!" I think that anything beyond three is excessive.

Standalone: Words are sexy. Language is sexy.

Standalone: I think using standard punctuation, et al, is a great way to differentiate between sarcasm and actual conversation. If I just went "ORLY? teh thought nevar cross'd mai maind" after typing this big, long, punctuated thing, I'm sure many would assume it were sarcasm.




ANYWAY. That's enough of that. I want to see what y'all have to say now.

~Fog

2Report(capped)
Gravecat at 29 Nov 2007: 17:40

>>1 Marry me?

3Report(capped)
FoxStar at 29 Nov 2007: 17:42

>>2 He has to marry me first.

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Mousey at 29 Nov 2007: 17:49

TEH TEH TEH TEH TEH TEH TEH TEH TEH

This is my curse.

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at 29 Nov 2007: 17:57

Isn't WRRYYYYYYYYY a meme though?  I didn't think the rules of grammar applied to those.

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at 29 Nov 2007: 18:30

tl;dr

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Bizzle at 29 Nov 2007: 20:44

I see posting in proper English as a courtesy to the readers.  It shows that you actually put some thought into what you give to them to read.  It also makes your post easier to follow and understand.

You are right that people tend to presume that those who use proper grammar are intelligent.  The same seem to apply to verbal communication.  One negative aspect of speaking or writing properly is that it does seem to cause resentment in some people with a pre-existing sense of insecurity concerning their own intellects.

Still, I prefer to communicate that way.  It allows the writer to use subtlety and to add subtext to his message.  The whole can thus become greater than the sum of its parts (for all of its flaws, this is the English language's greatest strength).  It is much more difficult to accomplish this when you are hasty and unnecessarily colloquial.

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Sen at 29 Nov 2007: 20:54

>>7
Agreed.

The trap people usually fall into with correct/incorrect grammar is that they tend to relate it to a person's intelligence.

There's an LJ community about philosophy that made a huge rule about proper english, but I disagree with it. If Socrates were brought to the present day, speaking his ideas, he wouldn't have a decent grasp on the english language. That doesn't discredit his grand intellect, but that particular community would chastise him for his poor english skills regardless.

I however, DO find intentionally misspelled sentences/responses annoying. So while I don't make assumptions on the person's intelligence, I do assume they're a little...immature.

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at 30 Nov 2007: 09:05

>>1
What??????????????????

I dont get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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at 1 Dec 2007: 09:20

I didn't think of better grammar equating to higher intellect, but I think of poor grammar and spelling as equating to laziness.  Clarity in written communication is enhanced by using proper written language.  Anyone who offers a serious post is trying to communicate an idea and clarity improves understanding.

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at 1 Dec 2007: 09:40

It is a matter of respect and familiarity. Anyone who IS intelligent and has something relevant to say will be able to make the needed research to write up proper posts with proper grammar and orthography. Yes, it will take them more time to do so, but they are, strictly put, able to do it, by virtue of their intelligence. Also, by doing so they show the readers respect, which makes many more inclined to read their post in the first place. Sometimes it's even as easy as having a friend proof-read. Another good thing to do is also to send ahead a warning that english isn't their first language, because, again, this will make people more inclined to try and find the meaning of the message.
(Incidentally, for me english is a second language.)

Also, to add some anecdotal value here: I have a good friend who i know is highly intelligent. They have english as a fifth language. When i got to know them they only used absolutely perfect and polished english in my presence. They also took quite some time to type out each line, as they took care to make sure it was perfect. Nowadays things are completely different. They trust me more and i know their speech patterns, so they skip things like proper grammar when talking to me and care a bit less to correct typos. For everyone else it would look like a child typing, but for me it's perfectly clear and i know it's the fastest way for them to communicate.

However, i do not know whether it would be like this today if they hadn't taken care in communication before, to take the time to show me what they are capable of. I kinda doubt they would, as it's quite an effort to learn those speech patterns.

In short: Yes, sometimes taking shortcuts is allowed, but usually one needs to show first that they are not simply stupid. First impressions count. If your first impression is that of a child, then people will treat you like a child.

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at 1 Dec 2007: 19:35

If someone can't take the time to write a well researched and properly written response then I won't even bother reading it especially if the post they are responding to showed great levels of effort. Intellect isn't determined by proper grammar and punctuation but the quality of the post often IS determined by those things.

Simply put, if someone can't show proper respect to a well written post and make it easy to digest for readers the opinion becomes irrelevant. It's not that hard to write with proper grammar and punctuation and it barely slows me down at all.

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at 1 Dec 2007: 21:42

The point of writing is to communicate.  If no one can read what you wrote, there was no point in writing it.

I concur with post #1.

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at 1 Dec 2007: 22:41

>>13  Agreed. Also, probably most people think the same thing.


That aside, I propose we switch to English 2.

http://foon.co.uk/rc/page/e2.htm

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at 2 Dec 2007: 00:58

>>13
But what if English isn't the person's primary language, but they're still making the attempt because they want to belong to the community?

I mean, they could write their posts in their primary language sure, but barely anybody would be able to understand it. I just think it's a bit cold to completely discredit what somebody is saying because they're being courteous enough to make the attempt.

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Bizzle at 2 Dec 2007: 01:49

>>15  It is usually easy to differentiate between people who are in an elementary stage of learning English as a second language and people who are too lazy to communicate properly.  Of course I respect the effort of those who attempt to expand their knowledge.

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at 2 Dec 2007: 01:52

Interesting...
with surprisingly little effort, many here have said much more in regards to themselves than they likely realize.
  Words do indeed carry power meaning and weight, to disregard those inherent values that come with such is a shame and does a dishonor and disservice to both sides.
does one really need to be so lazy as to not look for the meaning?
peace out people.

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quoting_mungo at 4 Dec 2007: 05:21

>>15
The mistakes you make as an ESL speaker are (generally) very different from the mistakes you make as a native speaker. Especially when it comes to grammar. I've studied English at university level and still occassionally try to cram it into the patterns of my native language. It happens.

(Re: thread at large, using general "you")
I personally feel that regardless of what medium you use, you should always strive to be clear in your communications with other people. If you can't take five minutes to make sure your message is legible, or take the extra second to type out "you" rather than "u", why should I take the time to try to decipher what the hell you were trying to say?

Anything worth saying is worth saying well.

That said there are plenty of cases where poor spelling/grammar can be used to further a point or for comedy (some of my WoW guildies and I are ridiculously fond of phrasing like "I is of teh $adjective", some people adore LOLCATS, etc), but if used in an otherwise well-phrased context those will generally be easier to interpret, anyway.

Plus there's also the fact that if you get used to typing in text message shorthand, one day you might end up handing in a job application saying "I want 2 wrk w/ u" or something. And that'd be right embarrassing.

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Tobby at 4 Dec 2007: 21:23

The word you're looking for is 'fallacy.' ;P

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Fog at 5 Dec 2007: 23:01

Dear Tobby, Post 19: I know. I just find it amusing that the word "Phallus" (Penis) can be fit into the phrase fallacy.

Now, onto one of the things I wanted to talk about earlier (but never got around to.)

In a mild extension and response to posts 15, 16, and 18, I think persons who are not entirely familiar to the language benefit the most from proper conventions in online-speech. The internet is a fast, wonderful medium for communication; many individuals interested in practicing a language that they have no opportunity to do so elsewhere CAN do it on the internet. However, if they are still at an elementary level of learning, let us say, English, the sheer variety of bizzare spellings and conventions that they will come across could possibly hamper their learning experience.

Example: A Dutch-speaking woman loves English; she has a partial grasp of it, but no real means by which to practice and improve her usage of it. Instant solution: the internet! She pops itno some random chat-room and is bombarded by incorrect grammar and spelling. Depending on how much of the language she understands, it may hamper her learning experience. If people used improper grammar and spelling, she will have taken all of those in as if they were proper... if she were then to attempt to use her new knowledge elsewhere, she may have an even harder time communicating, or even worse, have fallen so deep into internet-speak that grammar-snobs would look down on her.

The above example is a bit far-fetched, extreme, and unfortunately, even slightly confusing... Regardless, that is one of my largest arguments -against- internet speak and for proper language.
(Not nessecarily English. If I wanted to learn French, I'd probably go onto a French message board to practice; the downside would be that I wouldn't know what was proper and what was bunk.)

I'll have more updates, or possibly, more lucid posts, when it is convenient.

~Fog

PS. PS's on the internet (email included) are quite silly, especially since it takes little to no time to cut/paste the  PS-statement to above the signature.

21Report
at 8 Dec 2007: 00:32

>>20


PS's on the internet are used to indicate a thought that has no relation to the main topic being discussed in the letter, and when the author thinks that adding that thought to the main body would disrupt the flow of reading the message, they add it in after as a PS. Parantheses are also used as a way of indicating a thought that is unrelated to the main structure but the author wanted to add.

And by the way, the example of "Stupid..." as a use of end-of-sentence punctuation is a horrible example, as the "..." are qualified as one punctuation, used to indicate an intentional ommission on the part of the writer, which often comes misinterpreted as a trailing off. But when someone writes something like "Stop doing that...", what they're implying is that they had more to say, but decided against saying it to you. However, to be grammatically correct according to the MLA style, a period must be placed if it is to be used at the end of a sentence. For instance, saying "This isn't working out to well..." needs a period at the end of the ellipsis, as the ellipsis are not a period.

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Fog at 8 Dec 2007: 09:08

>>21, Ah yes... MLA structure. This is where my argument on the "proper" part is skewed quite seriously. Mind you, this isn't formal writing, but I have never been fond of the elipsis rule, regardless of context. "He's such a litte...." Just seems a tad excessive to me.

This being said, the degree of formality used in internet writing is, to a certain point a matter of personal preference. I doubt I'll ever publish any of my posts, so I never feel the need to go too far into formal conventions.

All this aside, it -is-  nice to see someone on here who knows about the MLA and the wonderful job they do. However as with all things, there are occasional slip-ups that not everyone approves of. Multi-paragraph substructure (I really don't want to indent -everything-,) is somewhat annoying to me when I feel that it'd look just as nice if you were to change the font size to something a little smaller and sans sarif.

Thank you for the quality post in this happy little thread!

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