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Is it better to just not get involved?

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at 16 May 2008: 05:55

Hello everyone, this isn't a purely furry subject in nature but I feel it's worth discussing and I would appreciate your advice on the matter. I have a lot of friends who partake in questionable behaviour that could easily be seen as self-destructive. In the past i've tried just about everything to make them realize what they are doing is bad for them and I hate seeing them hurt themselves like that. The problems range from excessive smoking, drinking, drugs and stubborn attitudes(to the point of holding them back from pursuing their dreams). Whenever I try to help them they proceed to call me a self-righteous hypocrite regardless of the fact I am not involved in any of the things I criticize and have fought hard my entire life to avoid those things. Sometimes i'm a little stubborn but i'm more than willing to say i'm wrong to learn from others with more knowledge.

Now at this point i'm starting to feel hopeless like there is nothing I can do because they say things like how the cig makes them feel relaxed. I tried to explain this is just a chemical reaction based on addiction and if they truly need help i'm there for them to listen, give advice, whatever it takes. But they seem to put more faith and trust into a little stick of deadly chemicals than me, closing themselves off and just smoking away. I could go into things more in depth but the gist of it is no matter what I say or do they just continue down their destructive path and my patience is starting to become tested. It's been a good 10+ years and i'm feeling like, yeah, this is a pointless friendship. There is no trust and they just consider me some self-righteous hypocrite just because I choose to avoid doing things that are proven to be destructive mentally and physically.

Is there anyone out there with a positive motivational story to convince me it's actually worth trying to help people? Because at this point in my life i'm considering it pretty hopeless and starting to think I should just stop caring about those around me and only think of myself from now on. It's pretty sad and pathetic to feel like this because 10 years ago I believed I could help anyone and couldn't fathom how people were so apathetic. Now I kind of understand the apathy people have. Well, thanks for reading, discuss away.

2Report (sage)
Captain Obvious at 16 May 2008: 09:25

People will only change when they want to change. Sad but true.

3Report
at 16 May 2008: 09:34

You sound just like one of my friends. The truth of the matter is that you're not going to change your friends. I drink and smoke pot, but I'm careful not to let it affect my life. (i.e. only in moderate amounts, only on the weekends, with friends, etc.) People who get in my face with self-righteous attitudes piss me off, and I'm definitely not going to listen to them. I'm smart enough to arrive at my own conclusions, and I don't need other people to control my life.

Let people make their own decisions. If it's not affecting you, let them do what they want. If what someone does gets in the way of your friendship with them, then it's probably not worth it to be friends with them in the first place. The worst thing you can possibly do is shun everyone who doesn't agree with your set of morals. You'll live a miserable life, and it sadly seems like you're heading down that path.

4Report
at 16 May 2008: 10:02

>>3
I don't 'get in people's faces' unless their actions start to affect me in a negative manner. With that said, some things are scientific fact, I don't believe it will be long now until smoking is banned everywhere except designated smoking areas and in the privacy of the home because second hand smoke DOES cause damage. As for excessive drinking(and more specifically driving) we already know the damage that causes. The drugs...you can argue weed is harmless all you want but i've noticed the change mentally in my friends who do it. Compared to what they were they are a shell of their former self and seem to really have mental impairment. They don't even notice it themselves but they have a hard time thinking and communicating clearly.

Now I don't expect people to follow how I do things but I do expect them to take responsibility for their actions. When their bad choices becomes other people's misfortune thats when it needs to STOP. Going around in a car driving high as a kite and filling the entire car with smoke is stupid. Driving drunk is stupid. Getting drunk on a regular basis is stupid. Smoking when non-smokers are around is stupid, rude and dangerous to their health. My father hasn't smoked for over 30 years but because of all the smoking his friends and family do, plus the bars he goes to...he has developed respiratory problems and a chronic cough. Don't try to play these things off as if they are harmless.

Will I shun someone who doesn't agree with me? No. Will I shun someone who has no regard for themselves or others, making bad decisions that hurt others physically or mentally? Probably so. Letting people make their own decisions only works when those people make responsible choices. You chose to do these things but in moderation, that's responsibility and I can respect that. The people i'm talking about have no regard for themselves or the people around them, i've just known them for such a long time it's hard to let go. These things weren't always a problem.

5Report
Bizzle at 16 May 2008: 10:50

Yeah, weed is bad for you.  It makes people even lazier and stupider than they were before.  Booze is bad for you too.  It makes you do dangerous things and sleep with fat chicks.  Tobacco is just fucking deadly.  The thing is, unless they're in your place or your car, it's none of your fucking business if other people do any of these things.  If you don't like the shit they do or the way they are, don't hang out with them.

6Report
at 16 May 2008: 11:28

>>5
Actually it is my business even if they aren't in my direct presence. As unlikely as it is...I could quit hanging around them, be driving down the road one day then they could come screaming across the street running a red light(because they are drunk and/or high) and sideswipe me. Now it's more likely it would be a stranger participating in the same behaviour my friends do but it's my social duty to at least TRY to get them to quit for the sake of themselves and other people.

If people at least tried to do this more often we could maybe save a few lives here and there. Instead people have this "it's none of your business" and "let people make their own decisions" attitude that lets people partake in actions that WILL affect others. Now sure...as a country we could stop abuse quite easily. Install breathalizers in cars to keep them from starting, implement smoking bans in public areas and legalize weed to REGULATE it's use.

Point is...until my country makes these laws and regulations to ensure the actions of others don't affect me or others then it's my responsibility to at least try to get friends to quit doing that stuff, take some responsibility and practice their bad habits in moderation.

7Report
Bizzle at 16 May 2008: 13:27

>>6
I don't know you, but "self-righteous" seems like a pretty fair descriptor after reading this.  Look, you can't take away people's right to be assholes.  If you want to be a white knight, go find a real cause, and quit trying to tell people how to live their lives.

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at 16 May 2008: 14:28

>>7
Right to be assholes? You mean right to break the law and endanger other people? Like I said, I support these things in MODERATION but I don't support someone else taking away my right to live a healthy life just because they think driving absolutely shitfaced is their 'right'.

9Report
at 16 May 2008: 14:58

>>7
P.S. Go tell the families who lost their children to drunk drivers that they are self righteous for thinking they should be able to 'take away people's right to be assholes". I'm so sick of you "freedom means I get to affect everyone around me in a negative fashion if I choose" people. By negative fashion I mean PHYSICAL and MENTAL damage, not annoyance, not displeasure, not disgust but DAMAGE. You might as well argue it's ok for a parent to rape their own child and beat them into submission. After all, it's their right to be an asshole and no one should be telling them what to do.

Now i'm sure you will argue "oh but I wasn't arguing that, you totally misread what I said blah blah blah" then I will say "well you obviously didn't read what I said either, I said I agree people should be able to do these things in moderation so long as it doesn't hurt others mentally or physically" so lets just skip all that bullshit and agree you are wrong and trying to troll this thread.

10Report
at 16 May 2008: 15:01

>>6 I think 5 is right, actually. If your friends are endangering themselves, and you find that's unacceptable and try to get them to stop and they choose not to listen to you, then you've got two choices:

1. find new friends

2. accept that other people have the right to make stupid choices and let bygones be bygones

I know you care and that's great. The world needs more caring people. But if you've really tried everything and none of it worked, what can you really do?

On the other hand there are things I don't like, and I avoid them and the people who do them, including heavy drinkers and illegal drug users. I'm not going to tell them to stop because it's pointless and everyone has their choices, their consequences, and their vices to make them human, but I'm not going to force myself to have a bad time by hanging around them.

11Report
at 16 May 2008: 15:24

>>10
'Their consequences' commonly become other people's consequences, that is unjust and unfair. I'd report them to the police before I stop being friends with them because that might be the only way to save them(first time offense they should get a slap on the wrist but maybe get scared enough to quit) because then at least i'm potentially saving multiple lives. I just don't understand this letting bygones be bygones mentality. It does not help society, it does not help the people you care about and it doesn't help the strangers they hurt later in life because you - the person with the most chance to help - decided to be some weakling who did nothing about a serious problem.

Maybe that does make me self-righteous to some people but the way I see it, i'm fulfilling my duty to friends, family, country and neighbors. It doesn't help that their parents are so fucking clueless because I guess parents have the same mentality. Just let the kid do whatever they want and at the end of the day they are still 'my little angel'. Shit pisses me off. The parents are truly the ones at fault here for not instilling any sense of value or respect in these kids.

Fact is it's the same mentality being displayed in this thread that causes such shitty parenting. People think they aren't responsible for what other people do. Well if you are friends with someone you ARE responsible for their actions and whatever damage they caused because you COULD have tried to help them then keep trying instead of just giving up when things get too hard. Bunch of god damn quitters and selfish bastards in this world.

Thanks, you inspired me not to quit on them.

12Report
at 16 May 2008: 16:38

>>11

In the end, it's up to individuals themselves to stop self-destructive activities. You can give them advice, but if they refuse it, you need to drop it and move on, because clinging to the issue and trying to force it almost never does any good in the end, and it nearly always does a lot of harm.

Another thing to keep in mind is to take the approach of attacking problems where they harm non-consenting individuals. If your friends do crap like smoke around children, you _should_ give them flak for it. That doesn't mean you should be nagging them to stop smoking entirely, though. Just because some second hand smoke could waft over to someone who didn't want it is not justification to outright ban smoking. (To note, too: secondhand smoke has been shown to be dangerous when frequently exposed to it, such as being in a household of chain-smokers)

A wise man once said, "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" I think you might want to take a step back, and look at yourself, because in all honesty, the "assholes" in this thread are right. You've crossed the line from trying to be helpful into being counter-productively self-righteous.

I used to be like you. I understand where you're coming from. However, after studying human culture and ethics in detail, I saw myself, and realized that despite my good intentions, I was being... a dick, and I was ragging on people over crap that really shouldn't have been any of my business. Live your life, and let others live theirs. Give advice when it hasn't already been given, and take care not to fall into authoritarianism.

13Report
at 16 May 2008: 17:10

>>12
Contrary to the attitude i'm giving in this thread I only mention the problem(as I actually said earlier in fact) only when it directly affects me at a point in time. For instance, when my friend was drunk and knocked over my PS2 breaking it I gave him a lot of flak for it the next day because he didn't even offer to replace it. I also forbid them from coming to my house when they are drunk or high because I wanted nothing to do with that behaviour anymore.

Do I go around actively lecturing people? No. Will I tell someone standing in a line who is front of me to stop smoking in the most polite way possible when the wind is blowing it back in my face? Yes. Do I lecture people even when they aren't doing something wrong at that exact moment? No. Will I mention it if they instigate an argument? Yes.

As for secondhand smoke...you know what? Before businesses decided to start actively banning or having smoking only sections people WERE exposed to secondhand smoke frequently. Waiting in lines, smoke. Going to grocery store, smoke. Go to amusement park, smoke. Restaurant, smoke. Every fucking where, smoke smoke smoke. So yes, it is because of the public outcry and demand for non-smoking areas that you can even breathe that nice clean air.

As for the log in the eye comment...do I have problems? Yes. Do they affect the people around me? No. All of my problems are personal and I make sure that I don't let my problems affect those around me in a destructive way. I admit I have a ton of problems though. Finally...it IS up to society to create rules to stop others from being destructive to society. Personal freedom that takes away other people's personal freedom is not ok. This is why we have specific protected freedoms outlined in the constitution rather than just saying "freedom applies to everything" because certain freedoms do have to be given up to take part in society.

14Report
at 16 May 2008: 17:24

>>13

Okay, so... why did you bother creating this topic?

15Report
Bizzle at 16 May 2008: 17:59

>>12
Jesus quote FTW.  Old Dude, had some great lines.

>>13
You are not society, nor do you speak for society.  You're not their parents.  You're not the cops.  You're not some legislator passing laws.  Who are you to be their conscience?  Live your own life, like Anon12 said.

>>14
To hear from other people that he isn't just being a holier-than-thou jerk.

16Report
at 16 May 2008: 20:52

>>15
Good to know you support drunk drivers killing children. As a matter of fact, I am society, as are the people who agree with me thus the LAWS prohibiting many of the things I speak of. The people = society, the peoples majority opinion = laws, get the fuck over it you troll.

17Report
at 16 May 2008: 21:26

>>16
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

18Report
at 17 May 2008: 00:03

>>13 The broken Playstation is what small claims court was made for... Well, that kind of situation. That is assuming you didn't get a replacement from him.

>>11 If they commit a crime, by all means, report them to police.

>>16 That's not what the original post was about, though. If you want, we can address that issue as well. As I said to 11, if a crime is committed, call the police. If a crime isn't being committed and you "just don't like it," there's jack shit all you can do about it other than tolerate it or leave. Like I said in 10.

19Report (sage)
at 17 May 2008: 00:09

>>16

Like it or not, the people who disagree with you are also society. And you can yell at them until you're blue in the face but they're never going to change until _they_ want to change.
 

20Report
at 17 May 2008: 00:10

KILL THE DRUGGIES!!!#%%#5
DRUGGIES GO TO HELL!!!987
YUO AWR VANDALIZING!3521
TEH PROPERTAH OF GAWD!111

21Report
at 17 May 2008: 17:38

I'm sure the OP's sense of superiority isn't gaining him/her much respect from friends. This is why I can't stand sXe kids.

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