fchan

if you do care to learn the reality of things here http://www.clawcast.com/podcasts/naylorspecial.mp3" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http//www.podtrac./... - Interview starts at 9:30

personally i like jay naylor's  works, they are deep. in a good way, he lets his characters be different from his own ideas

I don't like Naylor because he uses his comic not to entertain, but to really just push his beliefs on people and thinly veil it to look like he's not.

aka http://www.crushyiffdestroy.com/show/bdays

>>7
What that guy said, basically.
I'm only in it for the chicks.

>>6

Naylor's political views are hardly a secret, and there's no subliminal messages in Better Days. Personally I agree with a lot of his views, so I don't care.  If you don't, that's fine, but whoever wrote that page is either a complete moron or just has WAY too much free time.

You'd be hard pressed to find a story that doesn't work the creator's personal viewpoint and agenda into the story somehow.

>>11
It was, essentially.

The society in the city of Rapture in Bioshock was based around Objectivism, and it was a ruined, dying world because of it.

>>3

I thought it started out ok, but after a while (around the time he had the falling out with Matt Sherer) the ideas began to run out. 

at this point, either hes just generating filler in preparation of some epic plot twist, Or he's completly flip flopped and seized loving his work.

I don't know, ask him if hes got a surprise for us (depending on how long hes gonna keep it rolling),

or just wait and see.

>>2

its a dead url

I didn't know most people didn't like JN. Even if he does present his ideas, like >>10 said, everyone does that. I can tell you when ever in any kind of media, book, show, movie, whatever, if a character normally presented as intelligent presents an idea, it's the writers ideas getting into his work. And by idea I mean view on politics, behavior or the like.

>>17

This. Great as he is at drawing asses, this ruins it.

>>19
He puts "a small amount" of his ideas into "a few" of his characters? The only characters that oppose his viewpoints in any way are either designated antagonists or routinely put down for their beliefs, and usually both. In his works, you either agree with Jay or are wrong. It has nothing to do with his conservative views and everything to do with the manner in which he pushes them.

OK... maybe that's not entirely true. I find his apparent notion that people with a cock are never at fault to be very distasteful.

Oh, and by the way, it's "hard to win" a debate with him because he only debates in venues where he has total control and bans anyone who makes a point that he cannot counter.

>>20 Liberal artists do the same damn thing, and are a hell of a lot less subtle about it than he is. People don't like him simply for the fact that he's on the right side of some issues.

>>22
This isn't a conservative vs liberal thing though. It's an atrocious practice regardless of the ideas being presented.

Honestly, if this were about a liberal artist doing the same thing, I'd have the same reaction. Stories are particularly boring when the main character is every time all the time. Flaws make a character more than their strengths and abilities do.

>>25

anoying isnt it when you miss print.

>>27 >>why then make it with anthropomorphic characters which only end up representing human characters?

What else are they supposed to represent? Not real animals, one would expect. Their world is clearly meant to be just like our own, only with animal-headed cartoon people. If he's using the metaphor at all well, the characters' animal identities ought to reflect their personalities.

>>27

Dude you cant really bash the comic until you have read it
 

>>18 >>20

I really don't see what the big deal is.  Obviously if he presents his ideas, he isn't going to have arguments against them.  The point is that "here's what I think, here's why I'm right".  Yes, if overdone this can make for annoying reading, but Better Days doesn't really have all that much of it.

Also, Better Days is the only place I can recall offhand ever reading anything remotely resembling political or social ideologies.  Considering that it's something of a social commentary, that's almost expected.  If you like the way Naylor draws ass, read one of his many porno comics which don't contain any of the commentary. I don't understand how not agreeing with his political ideas means you can't enjoy his porn.

>>32
"...doesn't really have all that much of it"? Are we talking about different comics? Or did you just fail to notice everything that wasn't clearly spelled out as an ideological exposition? (Your comment that Better Days is the only thing you've read with sociopolitical themes strongly suggests the latter.)

As for his porn, he even occasionally feels the need to proselytize there, as well. And sometimes he feels the need to get all "art-y", reducing what might otherwise be hot into an unfappable mess.

The thing is, there are three artistic roles to be played in the creation of a comic: illustrator, writer, and director. Of these aspects, Jay Naylor is skilled in the first, horrible in the second, and probably doesn't even think about the third (few people do). He refuses to acknowledge that these shortcomings exist, which means that any comic he creates his fatally weak in one area and inconsistent-at-best in another. It's pretty much impossible to create works of quality under such conditions, and that's why people don't like his stuff.

>>35 So basically you're forming a strong opinion based on the opinions of others. Try reading it and forming your own opinions. Then you can bash it and the ideas you're presenting will actually be yours, and you'll actually have reasons for thinking that way. I tend to find that other peoples opinions of things very rarely match my own. Hell, some people even think that Dane Cook is funny...

>>37
..."fail to see how it's NOT my own opinion"

Man, every time I write something I miss ONE key word and only notice it past the point of no return. :/

>>39
Saying that you don't agree with my opinions is a more proper way to put it.

Saying that I'm wrong is your opinion, which is based on the opinions I presented here, which falls back into the argument you just presented.

Opinions aren't based on logic alone. They're also based on emotions and ethics, so saying that I broke logical rules with my opinions doesn't hold a lot of water. And besides, you don't know where I got my "biased information" from, because you don't know for certain what I've actually read, seen, and experienced about the comic Better Days. That article I linked earlier is one, but I've also read others, heard about it from others, been linked to examples of things I dislike about it, and things that I do like about it.

I honestly wish somebody would say what it seems like they're trying to say. "You should at least read the comic, you might actually like it." Because I'll be honest, this statement is true. My opinion -might- change if I actually sit down and read the comic.

I wouldn't have spoken up against that, I was speaking up against the notion that I have to read the comic to actually bash it, which just isn't true.

>>41
No apologies necessary, it's all part of the argument process. Maybe I will take a gander.

>>27

"Too much politics, ideology and other shit everybody has enough of it IRL."

-And you haven't had enough of the Furry Fandom?

"Brother-sister incest (for that redneck felling - though I really cant tell, didn't read it, just heard about it)" 

-Its was only mentioned twice. What a bummer

"Boring, main character and plot (father died in Vietnam, mother was a slut, sister was retarded - give me a break I can find plenty of that (again) IRL.) - don't get me wrong i don't have anything against realistic plots that want to represent reality but why make then make it whit anthropomorphic characters which only end up representing human characters."

-I had no idea Lucy was retarded, just naive in that cute, innocent sort of way.

"Other than that I guess its OK, and Jay Nayor said he will end it soon and start another webcomic."

Another one? Oh dear! :(

It would be better if he finish the other projects first

like new worlds or that non furry comic that.

  I personally like the comic, well written coming of age story that shifts well between the two main characters.  As far as the incest is concerned, its handled tastefully and isnt that hard to imagine,its not like there are 8 hardcore pages of the twins getting it on.  I personally think the first incest scene at least is neccessary, in my mind the brother seems to have a feeling of agape toward his sister rather than a romantic inclination, this feeling means that he will do whatever he percieves neccessary at the time in order to heal any wounds that she may have, regardless of the personal consequence for him.

>>47
Yes that is part of the definition.

>>49
As opposed to say, someone who states pointless insults without substance?

I have followed Jay's art and his comic for a long time. You know why I read it? It's a comic...

I read it cause I think he is a good artist. Saying he sucks as an artist simply because you dislike the man holding the pencil is rather childish.

As for the content of the comic. If you don't like the comic, or the content of the comic. Just stop reading it and leave it be. Why sit there and cause drama? There's nothing wrong with Jay putting his beliefs into his comic. It's his comic, not yours, he doesn't have to write a comic that everyone is going to agree.

Why, just because there isn't constant sexual innuendo or fan service in the comic itself, instead you have to thumb through dialog, it's a bad comic. For crying out loud the man was born on a military base and probably grew up in a home with "left" political views. Are we going to hold that against him too?

It's funny no one ever bashes him about his side projects and mini-comics. Why is that? Cause people get to satiate their need to view his characters screwing each others brains out. Yet no one questions his ability as an artist. Hell, on top of that, you're technically supposed to buy the comics. Yet you can go to practically any forum or image gallery site and see all of his works posted. Yet he didn't pull a Jeremy Bernal and fought to get his works taken down.

Give the man some slack. He is a good artist, whether people want to admit it or not. Just cause you can't agree with his views and he won't change his doesn't mean he's an ego. That's like getting pissed off at a nun for not wanting to convert to Buddhism.

Grow up, and find something more meaningful to argue about than about a man's character. If you don't like the comic, don't read it.

I don't look for the right places cause I have no need to bash other peoples work. I just can't stand how people troll and bash a guy and his talent just because they don't like him as a person.

I'm not saying to give him a free pass but it's all the more reason why he probably has as strong of views as he has. I just find it immature that we're going to hate people because of their political views. Who cares. I have talked to the man and I think he's a cool guy. I don't go into political debates with him cause I have no need to. He's given me tips in my art and has given me words of encouragement. I could care less if the guy has different political views.

And what does people masturbating to art have anything to do with an artist's skill level?

That's a clear example or someone bashing the man simply because you don't like him. He's popular for a reason. How many "popular" artists do you know who "scribble in crayon"? And all artists promote themselves, if you're good at it. More power to ya.

Uhh... for the sake of answering the OP's question, I don't.  Also, I don't care if anyone else does or doesn't like his work.

It's not just his beliefs and frequently-messed up art; there comes a point for many people when they finally realize that he's a genuinely terrible human being.

>>59

as in what does he do?

This is what I don't understand. I'm not trying to start a flamewar here. But if you're going to bash a guy, at least have a valid reason as to why.

His 'political views' isn't going to cut it. I would understand if he screwed you out of a commission, or things like that. But from the people who constantly rip on him and express their distaste in the man, they can never give any good reasons as to why they dislike him.

Why cause he has strong political views he's a horrible person? How mature is that?

>>60
I direct you to the sexist and racist undertones of his comic. There's also the fact that Jay Naylor thinks Jay Naylor can do no wrong: He stole the Lucy character and made a half-assed attempt to justify it; he only debates people in situations where he has total control, and when someone makes a point he cannot counter he bans them and deletes the posts in question.

But mostly the sexism and racism.

>>61

Thats what Im trying to get at, ia agree with you

>>67

Your argument is basically "He's not the worst in the entire world, therefore you can't complain about him."  That's stupid.  I'll call something bad when I see it.  I'm not going to cut him any slack just because other people are worse.  I don't hold every piece of literature I read or art I see to strict standards -- only the ones that take themselves seriously.  Better Days takes the serious segments of its story /very/ seriously.

How well I can draw doesn't matter.  That's an ad hominem attack.  I could point to hundreds of artists who are better than him; heck, I could point to basic anatomy books.  Also, I didn't say that his characters were clichés.  Clichés can be done well.  His characters are one-dimensional stock characters.  They are all driven by a single thought, and the only time they ever do or say anything out of their norm is when Fisk is involved, usually so that they can reinforce that Fisk is Perfect.

wait a click, i heard from a guy i know that the cartoonist "Robert Crumb" was similar to Jay in the sense that he was not the most likable person in the world, anyone know how, or is Robert to Jay that a bad comparison?

  Jay was okay for a while, now he has gotten boring. I dont read his forum because I dont care what he thinks, and the storyline doesnt have enough metaphor or twist to hold my interest.  I dont think he is a bad artist, and I dont really care if he's a bad person. If he wants to live vicariously through a character he created let him.

>>72

from what i seen of his forums, Matt Sheerer does the same thing, sort of. right?

>>73

Your thinking of Fritz the Cat.

>>74
Thats right, thanks. actually, from what i remember that had some pretty adult material on it as well.

>>77

She wrote the Twilight book series (you could just Google her name)

>>75

or like Garth Marenghi?

>>80
Or like Darth Maladi?
Sorry, I don't even know what we're talking abou, here...

>>82


fictional cahracter from that short series "DARK PLACES"

>>85

how do you even know hes a complete nut?

I find his art to be quite good-looking, minor anatomical issues aside. Saying that a cartoon artist reuses facial expressions is like saying a sculptor reuses chisels; They're tools to tell his story, and as conveyors of emotion they do their job well enough despite being limited in their range.

The story, I will admit, is not the best in the world, but it's not absolutely terrible. Fisk is a Gary Stu with the ability to blatantly channel Jay's beliefs, and a better part of the cast (Beth, Aron, Jessica, and Elizabeth to name a few) are very shallow, static characters, but the story still flows well. The incest is there, but handled tastefully enough. It may not be absolutely amazing, but it's entertaining in its own way, and it's a breath of fresh air from the butthurt, prosecuted wailing of the bandwagon furry crowd. A figurative 7.5/10, if you will.

Or perhaps I'm just being my moderate taoist self, and seeing both sides of the issue. I suppose it doesn't matter in a flame war like this. Didn't anyone tell you folks not to play with fire? Singed fur doesn't smell that pleasant, you know. And it gets ground into the carpet. I hope you're happy.

>>88
It's not that Naylor "reuses" facial expressions, it's that, toward the end of Better Days, characters almost always had the same, bland expression instead of, y'know, showing emotion.

The story was horribly written, with no sense of time, and a myriad of plot threads left dangling. But you touch on another point: the characters. It doesn't matter how good the story is -- if I don't care about the characters, why should I care about what happens to said characters? And you, yourself, admit that most of the characters were poorly written (Fisk being by far the worst offender in that regard, being a Mary Sue and all). By the end of the comic, I had very little sympathy for any of the characters, and what little did exist was mostly directed at characters Jay had stopped using. That tells me that there is something seriously wrong with Jay Naylor's storytelling ability.

>>89

Meh.  He's hardly worse than most other authors.

People just tend ignore preachiness when it is in-line with their own belief system.

Since my belief system tends to comfortably lie outside Liberalism or Conservatism, it's really easy for me to point out the ridiculous bias in most stories, since the majority of people/writers fall into one of those two categories.

He makes fapping more than lurking around /f/ and /s/... I don't care how conservative he is, he makes good porn.

for some one alot of people dont like
alot of people liked better days

"The world is full of absurdities.  It's what makes this mudball we're living on interesting. "


Here Here

I dont' like him.

Naylor intelligent? I'm sure he seems that way to his fans, what with all the ten-dollar words he likes to use. In reality, everything he writes is riddled with the same inane spelling and grammatical mistakes, like he never heard of a God damned spellchecker. Of course, by comparison with the other right-wing furs he's genius-level, but only because they're such a bunch of mouth-breathing failures.

PS, Maki - I'd like to see your interviews. Got a link, or did you take the site down?

>>40

"I was speaking up against the notion that I have to read the comic to actually bash it, which just isn't true."

So what you are saying, is that you CAN form an opinion without reading it. But your opinion may not be 100% supported by the reading of the comic.
I guess this is true. No one can stop you from making an opinion without ALL the facts first. But that is what everyone is yelling about, saying that you CAN'T hold an opinion without reading it.

Well, you did. And the users against you are probably ripping their eyes out of their skull in shock that you actually formed an opinion regardless of their rants :D

>>97

"...who doesn't take to criticism very well."

who does?

>>106
Reasonable adults.

>>106
Fish,  snakes, rocks, etc.

OK the thread stated who like jay naylor not who agrees with jay naylor beliefs or ideal, and I like his stories because there funny, sad, and everything in between.

>>112

3 Year thread necro.

i enjoy his works, the downfall of little red riding hood took a turn i didnt see coming but all in all hes good, haukaiu is my favorite of his works

Another furry objectivest? I thought im the only one! Im in love! :3

>>119

You should be permabanned for not letting this thread die the death it deserves

>>114
bump :)

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